25 Responses to “Justin’s Post: Let the Flame War Begin”

1. Suck It! on October 29th, 2003 8:51 am

   Justin,

   I would like to challenge a point of yours, you claim Cleveland is at fault for the exodus of the original Browns, and I believe this to be a really poorly guided assumption. Aside from all of the hate Cleveland as a city still has, Art Modell has done some of the dumbest things in the history of sport namely firing Paul Brown, who is arguably the greatest football coach of all time, I guess all and all though he is a shrewd football man, huh? That Art Modell so poorley mismanaged the funds of the Cleveland Browns throughout his entire tenure here that he had no choice but to move. It had nothing to do with fan or city support. It would be a strange paradox to you I guess but our orange jerseys and the Cleveland Browns organization as a whole, has THE LARGEST FAN CLUB OF ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM IN THE WORLD!!!! To say that Cleveland did something wrong in this case is completely idiotic. We fought tooth and nail to keep the Browns here, Modell made excuses and had already done all but jettisoned to Baltimore when he announced the move.

   You can pick on Cleveland all you want but at least we will never be stuck with the burden of trying to be New York and loathing ourselves because we aren’t! I am also glad that you typed your post because I probably wouldn’t have been able to understand a damn word out of your mouth with the silly god damned southie accent!!! I dont know if it is the chowdah stuck in your throats and nasal passages, but perhaps you should realize there is no reason for you to speak that way, take a friggin speech class!!!

   PS, Thanks for breeding Ben Affleck we all really appreciate it!!!!

   PPS, The Red Sox aren’t cursed, they just suck!!!

   PPPS, Pedro Martinez is a 180lb bag of shit in a 130lb sack

   PPPPS, Maybe if living in Boston didn’t suck so bad some of the Celtics 1st round draft picks would still be alive! If I knew I had to live in Boston for the next 5 years of my life I would probably try to OD on coke also.

   Thanks for the time,
   Bill Buckner

2. Justin on October 29th, 2003 9:41 am

   Yeah, because you midwest folks *never* sound ridiculous. No, course not. You don’t have stupid accents at all.

   If Modell is such a toolbag, how come he’s making money and winning a Super Bowl in Baltimore, two things he couldn’t do in Cleveland? If he’s such a bad administrator, shouldn’t he be making all the same mistakes in Baltimore? Or is it maybe the change of venue that’s helped him out?

   Like I said, this is Craig’s website. Direct your complaints to him. (He agrees with everything I said. Really.)

   Was that a pick-off attempt? BOOOOOOOOO!

3. William Safire on October 29th, 2003 9:44 am

   “Stricken?” Jesus, Craig, get your shit together.

4. FilteringCraig on October 29th, 2003 10:05 am

   Last time I checked, Modell had to sell a majority stake in the team after this year. Yeah, he has his shit together, really. So much so that he let his coke-head son (allegedly) run a portion of the team. Dude, you gotta back off on the Modell thing. You had some good points, but that man doesn’t have anything together.

5. FilteringCraig on October 29th, 2003 10:15 am

   Twelve Things Wrong with Cleveland Sports

   -Booing pick-off attempts
   -Pitching inside vs. headhunting

   I forgot how reasonable and well thought out Red Sox nation is.

   -Carmelo Anthony vs. LeBron James

   LeBron is from the Cleveland area. Despite talent assessments it was really no choice and everyone knows it. Being in a small market, we have to do whatever we can to fill seats.

   -The Indians Ticket Streak

   How sad is it when you have a stadium with 12 seats (oh� sorry 13 with that one they put on top of the monster in the off-season) and you don�t have a bigger sellout streak?

   -The Dogg Pound

   You are lucky anyone was even paying attention when the Pats won the Super Bowl because New England was still collectively pining about their Red Sox�s latest meltdown I think.

   -Walking out on the Tribe

   I don�t remember the Sox ever being put in a position where they lost their best free agents and traded the others in order to rebuild. When you have a NESN contract that isn�t necessary.

   -The Browns moving.

   Up and moved from our city yes. At least we had a team though. How are the Foxboro Patriots doing this year?

   - Drew Carey

   All I have to say is Ben Affleck. Snoogans.

   -Is Cleveland a small market?

   Yes, and it makes out sellout streak nearly unbelievable. How is your sellout streak in the much smaller stadium with a bigger fanbase?

   -When you guys exorcise the ghosts of Edgar Renteria and John Elway, then you can come taunt me about 1918.

   At least we beat the Yankees in a series before.

6. Justin on October 29th, 2003 10:36 am

   Sox fans at least understand that not every inside pitch is an attempt to harm and that a pick-off attempt is part of the game. Indians fans aren’t the only ones guilty of overreacting to these things, but I’ve noticed it and it annoys me.

   Ben Affleck admittedly has a hard time keeping his yap shut, but he’s not the first person the media runs to when the Sox make a trade. I swear to God if I have to hear Drew Carey’s opinion on the Browns one more time, I’m going to kick his bespectacled ass.

   You find me somewhere in Boston proper they could drop down a football stadium and I’ll recommend they build one there. Pats play in New England, because they’re a regional team. I’d bother explaining regional interest to you (it’s when a lot of people from all around like the team a lot and are willing to go to great lengths to see them), but being from Cleveland - and thus incapable of offering significant support to a team that plays in your backyard - you wouldn’t understand.

   It doesn’t really make the sellout streak that unbelievable, since it was a load of shit and the owners artificially kept it going for months at a time. Who knows if it ever meant anything?

   The Red Sox don’t have thousands of tickets to buy from themselves on gameday because, on game day, all the tickets have been sold. Because, around here, we like and understand baseball, and we like to see it played. (I of course don’t mean any of this personally about anyone. Craig, at least, seems to know his shit. He doesn’t seem to be representative of the region, though)

   You want to talk about remarkable sell-outs? How about the most expensive tickets in baseball, by far, being sold out for the whole season before a pitch is thrown? That’s impressive.

   Beating the Yankees in a series is nice. Nicer is winning a Super Bowl, or winning any of the sixteen NBA titles the Celtics have won since the last time any Cleveland team won anything.

   Ravens Super Bowl Titles - 1
   Browns Super Bowl Titles - 0

   That’s all I really have to say about the whole Art Modell thing.

   Cleveland Rocks! Everyone’s too busy rocking to show any support for your local sports teams.

   (Also, sorry about the stricken/struck error. I know stricken is supposed to be in reference to illness. So maybe, in reference to Cleveland, I wasn’t too far off.)

   Hay-O!

7. deezo feezo on October 29th, 2003 10:44 am

   Justin,

   Art Modell managed municipal stadium from 1976 until 1995 when the team left, he had nearly 30 consecutive years of above average attendance, and owned the football team with the largest world wide fan base in the world, dubious that he could make any money because Cleveland is such a shitty sports city huh? Maybe Modell is one of the shitiest professional owners in the history of sport. If you wiped the tears from your eyes to read the sports section perhaps you’d know that he has also been claiming poverty again in Baltimore a few years after winning a superbowl!!Art Modell also has no bering over the success of solid football guys Ozzie Newsome & Brian Billick.

   Maybe after failing to win a world series in 85 years you could realize the Red Sox just suck, but I guess blaming it on ghosts, curses, & spirits makes it easier to cope with the fact that the city you live in is famous for cream based soup, silly accents, drunken irishmen, and stuff shirt yuppie assholes!

   Like a guy from southie in a bath house, Im ooouuuuttt!!!

8. FilteringCraig on October 29th, 2003 10:57 am

   One last comment without any flames and then I am going to let this go. The population density in New England is huge. Ohio is still developing in that respect because we have an awful lot of farmland which makes our population density a whole lot less. We may have a geographically large area for a fanbase, but it isn’t the same. Plus may I also remind you that Pittsburgh is two hours away, Buffalo is about 3 hours away, Cincy is about 5 hours away (I think), not to mention Detroit. We are pretty locked up as far as that goes. Sure, you have NYC to the south, and Philly and DC along the coast, but you also have, Maine, NH, VT, CT and more representing for your teams.

   Finally, in my most objective viewpoint possible because I truly do hate Art Modell, the guy isn’t a good businessman. I can’t take his Baltimore superbowl away from him and he didn’t do anything illegal, but his move of that team was downright immoral. It was partially the fault of Cleveland Mayor Michael White, but it was even more the fault of bad ownership and bad business on Modell’s part. I think what Deezo was getting at is that the Superbowl was achieved only after Art brought in some people to take decisions away from him, like Ozzie Newsome and that Arrogant genius Brian Billick.

   The bottom line is that the decision was made about money, and it had nothing to do with attendance to the games. I know that sounds like it doesn’t add up, but it really does in this case due to mismanagement.

9. Donnie Walberg on October 29th, 2003 11:25 am

   Any dude who writes sweet sweet poetry and puts it on his weblog for all to see shouldn’t talk shit about sports.

   I just have a few questions about the below selection?
   >Did your gay lover ever come back???
   >Was it a beer or a wine cooler you were drinking?
   >Were was you head that you couldn’t hear the tape playing??
   >Is the back stairs slang for male taint?
   >Did you lose control over your sphincter?

   I opened the fridge; I opened a beer.
   Played a tape I couldn’t hear.
   Emptiness began to grow.
   And I’m wondering where did you go?
   I watched the sun come up from the back stairs.
   I thought about the last few years.
   I lost control. Where did you go?

10. Mark on October 29th, 2003 11:40 am

    Justin you are pathetic. You get an unedited free post and you go back to basically an argument that was about a week a half ago. Once again and for the last time Let It Go! You can rip on Cleveland sports all you want but. Pedro is a headhunter. All fans booo when opposing pitchers throw over to first. God that is obvious. The Browns have the nickname of the “dawgs” so when they dress up as a bull dog it is actually fitting. I am not going to get upset because it is obvious that the reactions that you have gotten so far are what you wanted and that is to upset Cleveland fans. That is a pretty sweet middle school type thing to do when you get made fun of for the Red Sox losing.Turn it around on someone else. But once again you are being “wicked” irrational. People in Cleveland may have accents but nothing like you semi retarded sounding people in Boston. Oh and my last thing. Sports is a business and taking LeBron was obviously the only choice Cleveland had. Read the Sports Illustrated article this week about LeBron and you will see the possibilities that he can bring to a “small market” city like Cleveland. Justin take your head out of your ass and think rationally. I know you love Boston but there are opinions outside those of Boston’s fans. “Come on You’re better than that!”

11. Justin on October 29th, 2003 11:41 am

    Some thoughts about the business end of things, because it’s interesting: Massachusetts is densely populated, and so is Rhode Island (all thirteen people who live there). Other than that, the Sox fan base is Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, all very sparsely populated, comparatively. (Not counting Connecticut in this, since the densely-populated part of CT is by New York and they hate us).

    Of course there’s an advantage for the Red Sox in that they have a big regional fan base. But there are plenty of bigger cities in the country, and I’m tired of hearing this small market song and dance from every bad team in the league that doesn’t play in New York or LA.

    The 1990 census had 2.8 million people in the greater Cleveland/Akron/Lorain metropolitan area. How is that a small market? Most cities with sports teams have a market around that size. Just because NY and LA are bigger doesn’t make Cleveland small. It makes Cleveland regular sized. And NY and LA don’t win in every sport, every year. They don’t even regularly lead their leagues in attendance (which you’d think they would if the size of the surrounding market were as big an indicator as people seem to think it is). Cleveland teams have just as good a chance as any other comparably-sized metropolitan-area team.

    There are 4.6 million people living in and around Detroit. The Tigers suck and no come comes to watch them. Is their market small? The Kansas City Chiefs sell 80,000 tickets eight times a year, even though 1.5m people live in and around KC, MO. It’s not all about the market, and I’m just tired of hearing that used as a crutch for every bad team that doesn’t draw fans. They don’t draw fans because they’re bad, not because they’re a small market. There aren’t many “small” markets in sports, because leagues don’t put teams in small markets. It’s a crutch and an excuse used by fans and owners of bad teams in much the same way Red Sox fans use The Curse (which is a load of horseshit invented by the evil Boston media so they can write books and do TV specials).

    Moving off of that: Art Modell, in my opinion, is a heartless scumbag. The Browns are the only team in Cleveland that have enjoyed undying support from the fans, and to turn your back on a fanbase like that (and move somewhere with an even smaller fanbase, since most people who live in VA/MD/DE are Redskins fans) is stupid and cruel. If he’d done that to the Patriots, I’d have hired ninjas to kill him in his sleep.

    I am, of course, just trying to cause ruckus and piss you all off. That was the point of my post and subsequent comments, because that’s what the bet was all about.

    It’s working! Woo!

    I’m serious about the pickoff thing, though. You guys need to send a fan memo and cut that out.

12. Justin on October 29th, 2003 11:51 am

    Mark,

    Thanks! Now I am stupid, irrational and pathetic. My business cards are getting longer by the moment. (Notice how I’ve managed to argue with you without calling you names? Who’s in junior high, again?)

    Not all fans boo pick-off attempts. Only bad fans do.

    The Browns have the nickname of Browns. If the nickname of their nickname is “Dawgs” (clever!), then change it to the Cleveland Dawgs. Until then, I encourage Cleveland fans to dress as the color brown (though that would be not only very hard but very out of place, since the team inexplicably wears orange).

    The LeBron James thing is typical. Fans want instant gratification. They want to see a homerun. (Notice all those “good” Indians teams weren’t exactly long on pitching?) They want to see a dunk. People who know sports don’t care so much about these things; they want to see the team win, and so they want to see the team take the better player. Taking an inferior player because he is better hyped and will draw fans is the sign of an uneducated fanbase. And when LeBron Mania wears off and the Cavs are still bad where do you think all those fans are going? Back home, to boo at some pickoff attempts from the comfort of their living rooms.

    If you can name for me one time, other than Karim Garcia, that Pedro Martinez has thrown at someone’s head or hit someone in the head, I will concede the headhunter argument. Until then, I think you’re wrong. (Not an idiot. Not an asshole. Not a fuckface. But wrong. Welcome to an adult conversation.)

13. Justin on October 29th, 2003 11:57 am

    Dear Marky Mark’s Brother:

    That’s a song lyric. But thanks for raising the level of the debate in the way only a true Cleveland fan can! By insinuating that I’m gay!

    http://www.lyricsdepot.com/mighty-mighty-bosstones/whered-you-go.html

14. FilteringCraig on October 29th, 2003 12:43 pm

    Ok, I thought I was going to quit, but now I am not. I am not going to call names or anything like that, but we really MUST talk about market sizes. The market size isn’t just about attendance it is about TV and Radio revenues. Do you think a Cleveland TV contract or radio contract is anything close to that of Boston? It isn’t. That is a major source of revenue above and beyond that of attendance. I don’t know a whole lot about a lot of things, but I know when I am talking about big markets it isn’t just about attendance. It is about the whole package including TV and Radio which are markedly lacking in a lot of the regions, thus making them small markets. This is why revenue sharing only makes sense. The Yankees and other teams have big TV dollars coming in, but they can’t get them without playing teams from markets with a hell of a lot less in TV money. That is why we need sharing. If it were just about attendance then it would all tie back to the quality of the team, but since it doesn’t on media contracts that are sometimes decades long, it doesn’t have much to do with it.

    Finally, I don’t support any of the name calling, because it doesn’t add anything to the argument. I am not sure who posted as Donnie Wahlberg or frankly what some of those references are to, but I also don’t support that kind of garbage. It was fun debating, but like many of these conversations on the web where people are protected by relative anonymity, it has gone too far. Justin did exactly what I would have done if given the chance on his site. And then I would have defended myself, and I wouldn’t have appreciated someone bringing that low-level into it.

    Keep it clean. Keep it fun. The whole point was to gloat and rip on the other person depending on who lost. Calling someone gay as an insult isn’t “ripping.” It is offensive.

15. Jordan Knight on October 29th, 2003 12:48 pm

    Wait, lets see if I can straighten all of this out.

    You are not mature if you react passionately when someone attacks where you live with misguided criticisim. In turn however said person who attacked your hometown is mature because he doesn’t use curse words.

    I love the logic!!!

    Perhaps you could stir a better debate if you posted some of those zany anti-government zingers we have all come to know and love on you shitty weblog!

16. Heathyrre on October 29th, 2003 1:20 pm

    It’s not about being immature or mature for reacting; it’s how you post the reaction. I was told once growing up that cursewords and name-calling are for people who haven’t the brains to use other, more articulated words. This is something I remember to this day when I’m dropping f-bombs for stubbing my toe.

    Yelling at someone when you’re fighting doesn’t get things heard any clearer, and neither does hurling insults at them.

    It’s ok to get angry, and it’s ok to defend your beliefs. It’s not ok to bring on personal attacks. No where in Justin’s post did he name specifically any member of New Kids on the Block. He made statements based on generalizations.

    And Jordan, I’m ashamed for you- straight out of Dorchester, and you’re ranking on Boston? Tsk tsk.

    Justin’s post was designed to piss people off, and it worked. That’s all it was. I’m from Boston too, and I abhor the Sox. I know nothing about the Pats, and I’m not too knowledgeable about the Celtics, either. People can post about our accents up here, but I’d like to point out that there are accents everywhere. Down in the South, they’re fond of “y’all.” Are they bad people who need speech classes because they’re making contractions where there shouldn’t be contractions made? We drop our “r”. Big deal. We also talk unbelieveably fast. Some letter had to go.

    Anyways, my point is, don’t make it personal like that.

    And Jordan, if I might ask, since the ‘blogs of these two men who keep me in stitches on a near-daily basis are so shitty, what is good? What should I be reading instead of this? Also, what have you been up to since you disappeared from the early 90’s pop radar? I vaguely remember some kind of attempt to be a solo artist; how did that pan out?

17. Justin on October 29th, 2003 1:37 pm

    I don’t know alot about baseball TV contracts. I know the Red Sox own NESN and have worked to curtail the number of non-NESN games each season since NESN became part of basic cable. So obviously they’re making more money doing that than they would with the traditional TV contract that most teams employ.

    NESN is made possible because there’s a huge portion of the red sox fanbase that wouldn’t otherwise get games on TV. They dont have the same UHF channels up in Vermont or Maine, and so pre-NESN they didn’t get any games up there on TV. Also, NESN is available with most satellite providers as a premium option outside of New England, so displaced Sox fans can follow along. Otherwise, there’s no advantage for the Red Sox to use NESN over a traditional TV contract.

    Those advantages are sizable, of course. I don’t mean to downplay them. It’s thousands if not millions more viewers per game for the Sox over most other team’s broadcast. But, I’d submit that the reason people care enough to pay extra for cable or for premium satellite channels just to be able to watch Red Sox games from afar is that the team is good. Not because there are just more people around here.

    (And, this is just speculation, but I think there’s something to be said for the quality of the team having something to do with more people caring about them. Do the people in Oregon all automatically love the Seattle teams just because it’s near to them? Why do people in Maine and Vermont love the Red Sox?)

18. jarataur on October 29th, 2003 3:29 pm

    Now see, wouldn’t this be cool if the teams were recruited from the outlying areas? That is, if Miami teams were only able to recruit from Miami residents. This would apply to all sports. There would be strict residency requirements.

    In this way the “my block can beat your block” syndrome would be taken to the n’th degree.

    And finally, when you turn blog criticism into personal attack, we won’t listen. Cause you are stupid. Especially when you are stupid and stupid some more. Stupid.

19. Deezo Feezo on October 29th, 2003 3:52 pm

    That sounds like some of the set up for European Soccer. I worked with a guy at a deli who was born & raised in Italy and told me the reason why Euro soccer is so crazy is because people actually play for their village team and then can be bought by higher divisonal teams if they choose to leave. It is alot harder for a guy to leave a team of his friends he grew up with than a team of free agents who will all change next year.

    In european soccer they know the only motivation the atheletes have is money and nationalisim (localisim or villagisim in this case I guess) so they use that to actually field competitive games all of the time. There are no Bengals VS Cardinal games in Mid December that have no bering on anything. Because every game means something at the very least financially.

    Also they don’t have a big market/small market debate because a village of 2,000 only will play teams in their division (similarly populated divisions) however, teams in the smaller divisions have the opportunity to advance upwards with victories and championship success. Every year the top 2 teams from Div 5 advance to 4 and the bottom 2 from Div 4 are demoted to Div.5. This means they loose TV Money and possibly their star players.

    All in all this guarantees that every game will have meaning and possible bloody violence afterwards, which we all know marks the true quality of any sporting event.

    Yes Craig that whole post was speaking of soccer in a positive light,

    Im gonna go shower, I feel dirty!

    Like a boner in running shorts, Im ooouuuuttttt!!!
    Deezo Feezo

20. FilteringCraig on October 29th, 2003 3:59 pm

    Danny like European Football? This is not possible. By the way, I owe you ten bucks.

21. Justin on October 29th, 2003 4:55 pm

    I tried to post this earlier, but a solar flare messed up by office’s internet connection (no, really).

    Speaking of the New Kids on the Block, I have twice seen Joey McIntyre perform the national anthem before games at Fenway. Twice. The first time I was amused. The second, I was just scared.

22. Heathyrre on October 30th, 2003 9:15 am

    Joey M got married, and his wife had no idea who he was when they first met. She’s 25. How do you get to be 25 and NOT KNOW who ANY member of the NKOTB was? She had to do a google search on him.

    And I’ve seen him several times at North Station. You’d think that Boston would have kicked him and Affleck out by now.

23. deezo feezo on October 30th, 2003 10:04 am

    How great is it that this whole intense war of words has boiled down to discussions of where the members of NKOTB are??????

    Im gonna make like a fetus and head out!!!!

    Dizzil Fizzl

24. FilteringCraig on October 30th, 2003 11:36 am

    That’s because this post has, “whoa oh oh oh oh, whoa oh oh oh, whoa oh oh oh oh, THE RIGHT STUFF”

    Someone kill me. Please.

25. deezo feezo on October 30th, 2003 1:50 pm

    Wooah ohhh ohh ohh oh oh Hanging tough
    Wooah ohhh ohh ohh oh oh Hanging tough
    Wooah ohhh ohh ohh oh oh Hanging tough
    Wooah ohhh ohh ohh oh oh Hanging tough
    WERE RUFF!!!

    Damn that song fires me up,

    Im gonna go beat up the guy who always steals the sports section out of the shitter at work.

    Im Ouuuuuttttttt!!!!!!
    Dizzil Fizzil

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